The Vision Maker Podcast
The Vision Maker Podcast
Journey into Music Video Mastery: A Discussion with Filmmaker Tom Flynn
Prepare to be captivated as we journey alongside Tom Flynn, a virtuoso director, filmmaker, and cinematographer, making a spectacular pivot from audio engineer to music video master. We probe the fascinating world of music video production, exploring the intricacies and challenges as well as the triumphs. Tom's journey is an astonishing testament to the power of creative risk-taking, a lesson for anyone daring to make a leap into the unknown in their career.
Our conversation takes a dive into the often-overlooked importance of free work and exploration in creative fields. Tom Flynn shares an inspiring narrative of how a free project catapulted him into a large figure deals - illustrating that sometimes, the hustle pays off in unimaginable ways. We also navigate the unpredictable tides of the industry and explore how to utilize tools like Unreal Engine to create VFX, giving you a glimpse into the magic behind the scenes.
Finally, join us as we unpack the creative process, exploring different techniques and tools used in filmmaking and the benefits of handheld cameras. Tom Flynn provides insights into the world of stop motion music video projects and shares his techniques for overcoming challenges with creative problem solving. In our vibrant conversation, we touch upon the importance of constant learning and adaptation, and how to stay creatively inspired. Not just for the aspiring filmmakers and cinematographers, but for anyone who loves a good story, this episode is a must-listen!
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So welcome to the Vision Maker podcast. So this week we have Tom Flynn, an extraordinary director, filmmaker, cinematographer that I have the pleasure of knowing for quite some time now. And, tom, why don't you give our audience a bit of an intro to you and your background?
Speaker 2:Sure, my name is Tom Flynn. I am mostly a music video director. I've been doing this for about 10 years now, got into it from doing audio engineering and I kind of switched over at some point and decided to go full on into music video and just video production in general. But yeah, I mean it's been super fun. I get to work with bands. I love mostly rock bands, metal bands, some pop stuff here and there. You know I kind of switched it up a little bit, but you know I'm just happy I get to pick up a camera and do that for a living. It's pretty fun.
Speaker 1:Dude, it's amazing and, honestly, some of the bands you work with are some of these bands I love and can't wait to dive into some of those projects that I've seen, especially some recent ones too.
Speaker 1:Because, I'm sure, like the stories, like I've already heard some stories from you, so it's like those situations are pretty awesome and I also love. The crazy thing is, I feel like so many auto engineers have switched to video, especially because of the pandemic, you know. But even before then, like I've noticed, so many people have come in contact, and me personally, you know, as an audio engineer background too, yes, going to video. So I love to start out with a little bit of your story on how you went from that field into video and how did that start?
Speaker 2:Sure, so I mean, I kind of always knew my way around a video camera for now. When I was like back in high school I was making like little skate videos, snowboard videos with my friends, I had like an old mini DV camera, you know, with the little mini DV tapes you put them in and, you know, looks like the early 2000s. But you know, I was editing an iMovie whatever I had my hands on at that time and I was always putting together these little mini edits from skateboarding and I always had that little piece of knowledge in my back pocket. But I went to school for audio and then I started interning and then eventually working at Fudu Studios with Mike Watts, who is amazing and you know, got to work with some really cool bands that I got to engineer there for maybe three or four years like full time, just doing it every single day for like 12 hours a day at least, and it was great. But bands were coming in with these really not so good music videos. You know that's kind of they were just showing them to us and we're like, hmm, you know Tom knows his way around the camera, like why don't we, you know, give him a shot or whatever? I'm like, yeah, let's see.
Speaker 2:And I ended up doing like two or three and they, you know, I borrowed a friend's T2i which was like state of the art at the time. I guess hilarious, but cameras still great, honestly. But I borrowed a friend's T2i, went out like, shot it on auto mode. You know, I didn't know anything. I was just like I know what I want to see, but I don't know any of these settings. I was just twisting shutter speed for exposure. I didn't know anything.
Speaker 2:So when I shot these videos, edited them and they didn't turn out half bad, I was kind of like, ah, like I still look back on those videos and like there's little moments in there where I was like, ah, like that was kind of a cool moment. But you know, that kind of was like a little bit of a light bulb moment for me where I was like, hmm, maybe I could like slowly work this in and you know bands would come in and I would try to produce, engineer them and be like, hey, you need a music video too. And slowly kind of inched my way into that and just the demand for video like became more than the demand for me as an engineer and I kind of started realizing like, like what if I just try to make the switch? What if I just make a hard jump here and just see what happens for a little bit? And yeah, that ended up happening.
Speaker 2:I ended up just making a full switch into video and just kind of didn't look back. I ended up just like pretty much completely giving up audio engineering. I still do it from time to time for like fun, but not professionally anymore. Just went full time into video and just didn't look back and it's been pretty fun since.
Speaker 1:No, that's awesome. I remember because when we met I was almost around that time because I met you at Voodoo.
Speaker 1:My band was in there for a season and you were engineer there at the time and still engineering and you know we just cross paths here and there, but eventually I started following your social media and then just seeing over the years I remember I really started to notice the switch to video and just knowing like you became like the long iron music video person, at least in the rock and alternative scene out here, and seeing you do for local bands like the Muck Rakers You've done a couple of videos and seeing that quality and just like the insanity and so on, because with the rock genre you can get really creative and it's like you got so many directions you can go with.
Speaker 1:And then now seeing you rise up to some I would even I would say very A list artists in the middle in the rock world Just the name of you from what I've seen recently Lamb of God and Buck Cherry and so it's been phenomenal to see your growth in that and just to see that like lame.
Speaker 1:Because I think to give you, really to give you credit is that music videos is a hard lane to really turn into, I would say a living like to make that your core as a videographer. Because I've seen some pretty successful videographers struggle with the music video world because unfortunately and you know this it's anyone that's not backed by a label financially. The budgets are very constrained, they're hard. And then you got that big jump now to label and a lot of these labels have their guy. They're the few core people that they are, they're used to so you know, and they're pretty tight knit with those corporations, you know. But it's how you break through the fold and really just in an organic way, it almost felt like, and would you agree with that statement, or would you?
Speaker 1:feel like I mean any pivotal moments you remember with that.
Speaker 2:It's been like almost 10 years doing music videos, which is kind of crazy to say. But you know, the first few years were pretty slow, honestly, and I think that's like the part that's just easy to miss in all of it is that, you know, the first three to four years were kind of just like I wasn't doing, like my calendar was not filled. I was just out there trying to do music videos maybe I do one a month at best, you know, and that was kind of just, you know, me trying to get my foot in the door and, do you know, whatever I could at the time and I was working side jobs and stuff just to pay the bills. And then I eventually, you know, made the jump about like five or six years ago, like that was maybe like four years in where I was like all right, like no more, like having another job, like let me just like let go of everything and just like hustle on music videos and like let's see if I can actually do it for a living, let me see if I could pay my bills doing it. And you know, and how does that hustle look? Like Just constantly out there reaching out to bands, artists and just putting out like the best work I possibly could, trying to just stretch every budget and make everything look as cool as I could and anytime. If I got like a label opportunity, I would just like just make sure that I put my head down and make sure I could deliver the best possible thing, because once you get like one label project and one kind of bigger artist, you can use that to pitch to other people and it becomes kind of this you know just, you build a little bit of a reputation.
Speaker 1:The credibility.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you get a little bit of credibility. So yeah, I mean it was. It's just been years and years of just compounding work and just networking and getting to know people. So, yeah, a lot of it's who you know for sure. But, like you know, expand that over ten years, you start to get to know a lot of people and An interesting thing.
Speaker 1:You just said there was that even in the beginning, when you were saying it was slow, you said maybe you did one a month, so that was like you were probably doing. Sounds like nine to twelve videos a year? Sure, yeah, and I feel like some people hear that and they're like you did that many, because some people may feel like that's even hard for them, but what I'm hearing, though, is just really like where the hustle is, that like you just kept going, like you probably asked so many people and got so many like, yeah, we can't do it for that budget, or like we just have no budget. And yeah, you're making those calls, and I'm sure some of those were even like spec jobs or really like no budget, no problem, which I know a lot of us have we do in the beginning, because we're just trying to get, for sure, I think, all your pieces out there.
Speaker 2:I think like, if you're just starting out doing some free gigs, this is not a bad thing. I know it has a big stink on it, you know. But yeah, and obviously you don't want to get caught in a rut where everyone just expects you to do free work, like that's not, it's not it either. But I think you have to. You have to get your foot in the door somehow. You have to prove that you can actually do what you say you can do.
Speaker 2:So I think doing a little bit of free works not the worst thing in the world, if you could afford to do it and you could just get one or two projects under your belt and this way you could show that to the next person, be like, hey, look what I could do. And like maybe that person doesn't know that you did those for free. And then they're like oh, how much do you charge? And you can be like, oh, like X amount, and they might not question it because it looks like it's worth that much because you hustle. Then you really, you know, put your all into it.
Speaker 1:I think the key takeaway was there is, like you say once, you had one to two projects that you're proud of under your belt. That's when you start going is like, hey, oh, I did this video, this and that I could do something like this for you, maybe in the beginning, like for a grand 1500, whatever it is you know, and then understanding who you're talking to. But they see the video and they're like, yeah, that makes sense, you know.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean, we even had a recent conversation, you know, and about my own band, because I love, they work and I remember, just like when you, when you, when you were breaking down the prices for me, I was like, yeah, 100%, that's a great deal, you know. I'm saying because the quality is there, you know. But that's like with the credibility, and I think sometimes we're creators, we don't give ourselves enough credit about what's your good spec job.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, my, my first label gig I ever got was off of a free video. I did a video for free and it, you know, put like so much, probably spent money on making this video. I probably lost $500 making this video and it got it somehow. It got into the hands of this label and then they, you know, they gave us like a five figure budget to make a video. I was like are you kidding me? Like what do I do with this? Like I don't even know.
Speaker 1:It's like I just spent money on this one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly so, like you never know who's gonna see your video and who you know looks at that free or smaller budget gig and thinks that it was a lot more because you really put a lot into it.
Speaker 1:You have to, you know, put a lot of your own mental energy and yeah, and the fact that you're just pushing it out there with whatever artist, but you're also pushing it out there yourself and yeah, and see you never know, it's like pushing it out there might not go in directly in the hands of trying to push it in, but it may get into somewhere else, like next to you know.
Speaker 2:You never know. I think that, like that's one thing I've totally learned is that you just never know what's coming next. You never know when it's gonna be like an insane few months, you never know when, like, it's just gonna dry up for a little bit. Like it's just you just keep going and that's it. Like that's all you can do. Like a lot of creators can relate to that, I'm sure. It's like some months it's like you can't even find a day for a personal day, and then another month and you're like I got like maybe like a few projects, like a count on my hand at best, and you know it's gonna wait for the next stretch of craziness to pass and that's just how it goes oh man, oh man.
Speaker 1:I think I love to hear more about now that, like, as you grew and everything like that and you're been more recently, you made this big leap into VFX, into like programs like Unreal Engine, which is such a. It's this whole.
Speaker 2:Category world.
Speaker 1:You know and I would love to hear maybe, of course, how did that leap even happen? And then also like, how's that been, like you know for you.
Speaker 2:So been slowly kind of inching my way into doing a lot of that stuff. Sometimes I'll collaborate with VFX artists and you know I've been doing that for years. But there are other times where I just want to like build something myself or I have a very specific vision for, and I never really had the capability to do that. But like this year I really I Literally bought a completely separate computer in order to do unreal stuff because I had, you know, I had like my MacBook Pro laptop that like I could fire up final cut-on and edit videos all day on. But you try to run this like super heavy CPU Eating VFX program, like unreal, it's like computer just falls apart. So I had to go buy like a like a tower PC, you know, just to run unreal.
Speaker 2:I'm like you know what I'm gonna invest in this, I'm gonna learn it, I'm gonna try to just incorporate this into my workflow somehow, some way, and I just I put like 70 to 100 hours just like learning it. I'm like I'm just gonna like learn this and then figure it out and hope for the best. Hopefully people Can dig that. You know being like worked into some of my projects and shows. Thanks, man, I I've been, you know, slowly, kind of implementing it more and more into my workflow. But yeah, you know, I've done like maybe three or four videos in there now and I Feel like each time is a learning experience, like it's such a deep program that you have to really Spend a lot of time to like figure out all the things you can do, which is pretty exciting because, you know, doing a band performance like there were times where, like you know, it's getting a little uninspiring with the setups and I wanted to like make something where I'm like, oh man, I wish I could like build this crazy room with all this stuff and you either didn't have the budget or we just Didn't have access to a crazy location like that.
Speaker 2:I'm like, oh, what if we try building something crazy in, like a program and that that ended up being like this kind of gateway into just this whole other world of being able to Creatively express myself in a different way. That wasn't like me traditionally just running around with a camera and like just being Present on a location, but rather shooting stuff on green screening than creating all of that in post, which is like a whole different process and, you know, I don't know if I like it more or less, it's just. It's just another avenue that I get to kind of toolbox.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I love it. I remember like seeing those first couple videos. I mean, like if you guys check them out on Instagram and or check out the videos themselves, like the work, I thought it blew me away. Honestly, I thought it's so cool some of the concepts that you had going In these videos, and to find out like later, at a later conversation we were having that, it's like, oh yeah, I just learned it for that video. And in the beginning and I'm like, I'm like this is this is the the first try, or me first released try.
Speaker 2:I don't like practice runs, but like that. Probably the one you're referring to is the moon juice video.
Speaker 1:Exactly that with the storm and the fact that you took them separately, all green screen separately, and then you fuse them into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know it's that gave me more control of putting them in each spot and just kind of spreading them out in like a In a world that I put them and I shot each band member, each on a green screen, just like a standard, like 10 by 20 green screen.
Speaker 2:You already had the vision in your mind, where you like, trying to match the lighting, or like this I had like sort of an idea like I wish I could say it was like very Pre-visualized, but like it was like a little bit of shoot-and-pray and I just was like I have to trust that I'm just gonna figure this out, like I. There's so many times where that happens more than I'm willing to admit.
Speaker 1:Where it's like I think that happens for most.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like you're like alright, like I know I can do this and like if I light it this way, I could probably make it happen. So, yeah, I mean, lighting for the scene is definitely helpful, but uh, yeah, that one like that was kind of like I'm just gonna figure this out and I hope it works and it did work.
Speaker 1:It worked, man. It really it was, um, it was a cool concept and they hear that, like you, really just dove into it. I think it also showcases, like, your passion and commitment to your vision, because, of course, like you, you wouldn't help put in the hours to really get what you're envisioning out if it wasn't for that. You know, and I think of that as shows in all your work, which is what translates to your success too.
Speaker 2:Oh, thanks. And I mean there are so many times that I pitch ideas to people that I'm not even sure that I can do them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like, I'm like crapping my pants, like, well, like when they, when they accept the idea and they're like let's do this, I'm like, oh man, I have to do it no and now I actually have to figure this out, like it kind of freaks me out a little bit and I, I, I, I regularly just have so much anxiety going into these projects that people have no idea they're like, oh, you know, so he's doing. I'm like man, I freaking hope so, but uh, yeah, I, but part of that is like exciting because you're like all right, now I actually have to figure this out. And then then you do it and you're like, wow, it actually worked out and you know you look good.
Speaker 1:But man, it's like this is that creative problem solving. Yeah, it's kind of like it's funny for me. It's like I relate to that so much because there's a part of me that loves a certain level of chaos. I love like shooting, I love being on site, I love like the work that happens in the day. I'm not so not a bigger fan, as big of a fan of the post-production and stuff like that, but I love like being in it, directing, being a cinematographer and Just like handling things as they come, because for me it's such a dialogue, you know, it's like things are really important, like things are happening.
Speaker 1:They're speaking to you and then you're trying, like you go in with the plan and the plans already went out the window after the first five seconds, anyways. So you're just going as you're figuring it out and you know so, and I had the experience to kind of watch you in action. Thankfully, like you, you you put out extras for a Lamborghini shoot that's right which was and it was such a cool shoot, and so I went there as an extra but like seeing you really like run the set. Now, of course, as at that point you're an experience, you know, and you're directing, but like I kind of saw that like in the moment you were reviewing the footage and then you were getting ideas and you're like, okay, and then you were directing your guys so what kind of talk about like how you view that dialogue of like the shoot day and handling like this higher profile Clients and stuff and you know just things that can happen, and like how you view that and how you kind of deal with that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean you try to treat it all the same.
Speaker 2:You know, like, if it's higher profile or if it's somebody else like, you try to treat it All the same. I mean, obviously you might have a few more nerves on a higher profile shoot, but you know, going in you always want to be as prepared as possible with some form of a shot list or storyboard or something that you're sticking to for the day. But in my experience, you can only really map out like 75% of it and then, like the rest is like You're gonna be inspired by something that happens on set and you're like, oh well, that happens, so we got to get this now and you have to be open to those changes happening organically on set because, just, no matter what video I've ever been on, there's always like one crazy stupid thing that happens that you have to like somehow course correct, and you're like, ah, like you know, main actor didn't show up, like, oh my god, what do I do now? You know, I mean I got to start calling people up like one of the craziest things that you remember.
Speaker 2:What is one of the craziest things. We were building a Stage that was supposed to be filled with water and the band was supposed to look like they were like Floating and standing on water while they were playing. It was a cool concept, but that like like we had to build like an actual, like stage on set out of wood and like we thought we had it perfectly built but it started leaking. Oh, how much water was in that thing. So much water.
Speaker 2:And like of course we're in the warehouse that has like Like millions of dollars worth of like solar panels or something crazy going on, so like water is literally leaking out of this thing. We're all looking at each other like hundreds of we just start grabbing buckets and just start like empty in buckets, like into the street. We're like hoping that nothing gets wet. Thankfully nothing did, but we had to totally course correct on that one. It just be like all right, they're not standing on water anymore, let's rearrange this, let's make it look this way and then in post maybe I'll try to do some trickery and did a look and grade it and did a working out. And, you know, client wasn't too, you know, bugged by it. But hey, man, things happen.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you got to be able to roll with it, and you can't be standing there sitting like looking around like well, sorry guys, it's game over, it's like no, you got to, you got to figure something out. You got to just confidently be like this is what we're doing now and it's gonna look awesome and we're gonna keep moving forward, and you know that's all you can do, really.
Speaker 1:I think that's such a Important attitude to have to, especially when you're dealing with clients like they. As long as you give face that, like we got this, they'll go for the most part will always be like okay, you know, because they just have no idea what's happening.
Speaker 2:Anyways, to begin with, yes, sometimes they do too. But I think just having like that like decision-making muscle and really working on that and like Try to not sit there and be too like, like just just get used to like making decisions and kind of trusting like your gut on a lot of things and just you know you could always backpedal something later, like there's been so many times that I like either came up with an idea On set and then I saw it and I'm like, no, no, that's terrible, stop, stop, just reset. Let me just rethink that. Let's go this way instead. And you know, as long as you can, you know comfortably admit when something's not good that you came Up with, yeah, that's.
Speaker 2:You know, people respect that too, because they're like, alright, he's not just like some egotistical, crazy guy who's just like confidently saying whatever and like you know, you got to be able to be humble, yeah, and like take criticism from people and like, even if it's somebody who's Not qualified to say something, and they say something and they're like, oh, like you know, is it weird that that reflection's not there in that shot? And like I'm like oh yeah, that's actually.
Speaker 2:you're actually right, I should probably Reset up that shot to make sure that's right. Thank you, you know like a hundred percent.
Speaker 1:Just having good people who are honest around you help so much and being open to that, like you said, oh, yeah, you mean it late, like because at the end it's like the goals to get a great video. Yeah, it's not the booster on eagle, no, yeah, I mean my guys around me. Humble all the time, humble me all the time. Oh yeah, it happens, yeah, especially when you're like, because you, you know, sometimes, when you're directing things and you're being the visionary, it's like you're so macro sometimes that the micro king is slipped by.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're the other way around, like it can definitely happen and having other people around you to kind of have that alternate perspective. It's definitely important sometimes, for sure that's awesome, Is there?
Speaker 1:um? Is there a particular video that you're really proud about, or anything that you pulled off that you're like wow. I don't know if I could pull that off again, but like that was you.
Speaker 2:I would say. I mean there's definitely a few, but one with like a pretty good story to go along with is the first Lambda God video I've done. I did four of them. The first one, for Memento Mori, I co-directed with Mike Watts and we got the call to do that video, maybe seven to 10 days before it had to be shot, and it had to be shot in Richmond, virginia.
Speaker 2:We had to assemble a crew, go down there, get locations, get all these makeup artists, crazy people like all in a room together and we were like how the heck are we going to do this in like seven to 10 days? We got to get down there. You know we were trying to look up flights. It wasn't working out budget-wise. We were like man. So Mike had this crazy idea to rent like a Winnebago and just like take our Long Island crew and throw like eight of us in a Winnebago and just drive down there with all of the gear to make it happen. I love it. This is a great idea.
Speaker 2:And like we're just like driving down, like chilling, like it was wild, and we didn't have like any location set up at all, to the point that like we got down there and we had like the first scene of the video was supposed to take place in a laundromat and we're like, all right, we got all the locations. What about the laundromat? Like all right, how hard is it to find a laundromat in Richmond? Apparently really hard. We were looking around I'm like and like we walked into a few and they were like so weird and like not working out, like they were crazy people like running around and like coming up to us asking us for like drugs and stuff.
Speaker 2:I'm like I am not. We're not bringing the ban here. This is not happening. So at like 11 pm the night before we were shooting what are the biggest artists I've ever worked with we had to like email a major label and be like, hey guys, we got to do something different for the first scene and we literally made it like thankfully, one of the like friends down there had like a tattoo shop Okay, the Sinisteria crew, who are awesome, they had a tattoo shop down there that let us use it. And if you look at the first scene of that video where he's like mopping the floors in the tattoo shop, like that was not supposed to be in a tattoo shop, it just ended up that was just the spot we like had access to at the very last minute.
Speaker 2:Label was just like all right, whatever. Do you think you know we? Trust you and I got and you know it ended up working out. It ended up looking cooler. Anyway, it was really cool. But yeah, that was one of those things where, like you wouldn't expect something crazy like that to happen on such like a like high profile shoot, but they happen, you know things like that happen.
Speaker 2:You just got to be ready to be like all right, like this is what we're doing now and just trust that it's all going to be okay. Even if it's not, you make it okay some way.
Speaker 1:I think, I think that's a big myth. You know, that they say is like everything that happens on small shoots, they happen on big shoots too.
Speaker 2:They just throw money at it. There's no difference. There's more money to throw at it. You could throw money at your problems on bigger shoots for sure. But sometimes you can. You just have to like. Sometimes you have a fixed budget and you still have that limit anyways.
Speaker 1:So it's like it's not that like. Proportionally it's almost the same.
Speaker 2:Yeah, stuff goes wrong.
Speaker 1:Just because you have the money doesn't mean that it all magically doesn't go wrong.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, yeah, definitely. So you know you have to do whatever you got to do sometimes, oh, that's, that's crazy, you know.
Speaker 1:and again, at the end of the shoot, it looks great.
Speaker 2:No one knows the wiser.
Speaker 1:No one is the wiser. No, that's crazy. And then I think one of your most recent at least released. I'm sure you're working on plenty of projects right now, but was Buck Cherry, I think came out like a month ago, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, did two videos, for Buck Cherry went out to LA and shot both of them in the same trip, literally back to back days. You know they had they wanted two videos done back to back days. That's. That's something that happens pretty frequently actually, where it's like a label or somebody is like hey, we want to shoot two videos, let's just do them back to back. The band isn't touring at this time so we can do them, but they got to be like one day after the other so you got to be ready to shoot two videos back to back locations.
Speaker 2:Everything there is like lined up two days in a row, so like that could be its own. You know craziness sometimes, but yeah, those were fun videos. We did like a crazy trace face transformation on one of them and like had people like turning into zombies and stuff, and that was like kind of another one where we pitched the idea and I'm like all right, I'm just going to have to figure this one out.
Speaker 1:How'd you pull?
Speaker 2:that one off. Oh, like it was crazy. We had to like face track with like a mesh on people's faces and then like insert images and like make sure that they interacted with the mouths properly. It was, it was I like I didn't know how to do it at all. I was just like I can figure this out. It was a lot of figuring out before it was like even close to looking acceptable, but yeah, it was one of those things. It was like all right, like this is the idea we got to figure it out. It's like it's either I figured out or I like spend everything I was going to make on the video on like somebody who knows how to do it. I like some crazy VFX hours or I figured out myself and just like you know?
Speaker 1:Hey, that's, that's definitely the name of the game, for sure. Oh, that's crazy. And that one was part of the one that just came out, or is that the one that came out? So there were two that just like came out. The both of them came out, yeah.
Speaker 2:The one with like the fire in the background. Yeah, so that was day two, we shot that that was an LED wall background that we had, okay, and that was cool, you know that was just like a performance video. Buck Cherry. Looking like Buck Cherry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cool, as hell rocking out yeah.
Speaker 2:You know that one was definitely easier to pull off than the first one. I'd say, yeah, the first one we had to like rent out a mansion, get like a whole bunch of people there for a party. A bunch of extras had to do the face warping stuff, so like it was a much larger production. We had like at least 70 to 100 people there for the shoot, so like it was a lot going on. And that's another thing that is super hard to get used to is when you have a larger production, like trying to figure out like what amount of energy you're going to spend on like wrangling people to get them ready for a shot, or, you know, focusing on the monitor oh, did I miss something with the lighting? Yeah, you know, it's hard to kind of divide yourself with that stuff, and that's where it can become stressful, where it's like you're focusing way more on like the logistical preparation of a shot and like making sure everything's right with, like, the people, and then you're not paying attention to the camera.
Speaker 1:And so for a shoot like that, would you ever get like a, maybe like an AD? Yes, I mean, that's definitely where I was going with it on the Buck Cherry shoot.
Speaker 2:We had a larger crew, so those things were able to be outsourced to other people on set who you know. It's like this is your job Make sure all the people show up. It's like there's a front gate that keeps locking. Make sure they can keep getting into that gate. Make sure the parking's okay, we're not blocking any driveways, we don't get the cops called like.
Speaker 2:There's so many little details like that that, like you can easily get sidetracked, trying to just like basically patch all the holes in the boat the whole time instead of trying to drive the ship you know. So like that's. It's really good. That's where you start to learn that you have to have more people on set for things like starting out like I would just like solo shoot and edits everything and like it's. You can do that on small scale projects. But when you have a lot of people run around on a set and you have multi of makeup artists, you have set designers you have you know people and then you have people from the label there, looking like you got to have multiple people that you can rely on, like a team that can step in and help you out.
Speaker 1:No, a hundred percent. A hundred percent and no, I mean it's just great. I just keep thinking of different examples of different videos, yeah, yeah. But I would love to hear kind of like with the projects now, because I know like you've been getting a definitely more and more referrals and different things like that at your level, like you find yourself now kind of more pick and choosing projects and or you know, as I kind of like having that liberty, because I know it's like at a certain point you definitely get more of that. Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2:I'm definitely more of a yes man than I. You know. I see my guess. I like just taking on a whole range of projects. I say in the music video world I'm pretty open to a lot of different projects. I don't, I don't say no very often, you know, I like, I like variety. You know what I mean. I like to kind of just, you know if something, if there's a project where something seems like unsafe or like just crazy, like I'll try to redirect it, and if that doesn't work, then obviously it's not going to work out. But like it's so, so rare that I ever say like just no, you know what I mean. Yeah, you know there. You know there are projects outside of music video work where somebody's like hey, can you like fill my daughter's sweet 16, or something where I'd be like, ah, I'm not sure.
Speaker 1:Don't blame you on that one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I could, I could send you to somebody who would be more you know into that. So I guess you know, over the years I've definitely gotten it to where it's really just music videos for the most part. Yeah, you know I'll take on little things here and there outside of music videos, but I I try to keep my focus where you know I enjoy it and that's doing music videos and that's. You know, if I could fill up my calendar doing music videos, why not? You know it's, it's fun.
Speaker 1:It is. It's fun. Personally, one of my favorite things to shoot as well. You know music videos and you know not as many as yours under your belt, but I love the one thing that I personally always loved about it is the creative freedom involved. It's a lot like films, because that's what they are For me. That's what they are. They're little films based around the story of the song, you know, or whatever concept the artist wants to portray, because sometimes they don't have to really go along with the lyrics. Definitely you got that looseness you know with the story and I know you're very involved with the concept and with directing, really, and DP. So and those are your main fortes, I would say was there. I'd love to hear if there was any like one you think was particularly unique or one that stood out to you in the sense of where the story really connected you know, yeah, I mean I love shooting storylines for music videos.
Speaker 2:That's like so much fun because you're basically making like short films that go along with the videos and like that's cool, cause like I don't know if I'd ever really get into doing like feature films, like not to say that I totally wouldn't, but I guess I'm too ADD for it. You know, I like I like just doing like one video and then be like all right, that one's done. Let me start with something fresh. Like you know, I was the same way when I was writing songs. I finished like half a song, throw it out and starting. But yeah, I mean I, I like videos that are challenging and sometimes an artist will come to me, like the band Covet Evette.
Speaker 2:She'll come to me with some crazy idea and like I'm like I don't know if we can do it, but let's try. She, you know it was like hey, why don't we try like some stop motion animation and like we're jumping out of planes and we're playing our instruments. I'm like that sounds insane. I don't know if I'm even the guy for that. And she was like no, no, you can do it. I'm like, all right, cool, let me try, let me see what I could do. And we sat there for like days. She would like draw the clouds and like draw like four different clouds. I would like lock the camera on a tripod, shoot those four clouds and like import them and like position them. And then, like we, we had to like green screen the band members and make them look like drawings too. And she drew the plane and I had to like animate the plane in, like manually it was. It was kind of crazy.
Speaker 1:That's crazy so much that.
Speaker 2:like there were birds like flapping their wings, like we had to draw the birds in different, like hand flapping positions and then getting them in the right sequence. Yeah. And then we just like sequence them and loop them and I'm like, oh, we can do this. Yeah, you know, slowly but surely we, we gained more confidence as we went and I'm like, wow, that's kind of crazy, I haven't done a stop motion video since.
Speaker 2:But it's just like sometimes you gotta prove and that was that's a label project. So like I had no business. Like I had no business saying yes to that. You know what I mean? Like there was like there was no reason, like where I was like yeah, I can do that. I was like I just said I could do it and then just like figured it out and like that's like the. That's so much of these bigger projects. Sometimes it's just like you just have to like throw yourself to the wolves and just be like all right, like I either figure it out or what.
Speaker 1:Like I'm not going to, I don't know I mean Richard Branson has a great quote like that say, say yes, and then figure it out after the fact.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's like obviously prepare yourself the best you can going in. But like, of course, just I feel like if I would have said no, that I'm not the guy for that, I would have completely closed that door and probably never would have tried it, because I don't know. Stop motion, that's like. That's like a whole different craft, same with a lot of the VFX stuff that I've been experimenting with.
Speaker 2:It's like I feel like you know inside, it's like you know, everyone has a little bit of that imposter syndrome of like 100% and like kind of rightfully so. If you don't have any experience in doing something, like on a certain scale or like some idea, so, like you know, understandable that you would want to say like no, I'm not the person. But like what if you just said like yeah, I could do it, and then you just try it and maybe you figure it out?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think and I think with like our medium it's creative and I feel like what I always tell people like, especially when it comes to like live sound and different things like that, is like two number one skills. First is Tetris Can you pack up a van as tightly as possible?
Speaker 1:And because half the time we're packing up equipment in places that don't fit. But the second thing is troubleshooting. You creatively problem solve, because it's not about when, it's not about if something goes wrong, it's when it goes wrong. It's not about if you can, it's like if you can do something, how can you do it? Like that's because most of the time it's like, because it's creative, it's something in your mind and now you have to make it a reality. And your discipline is about learning the tools that so you can create the creative, the thing that's in your head out in the real world. And we do it on a visual medium, you know, but it's never like a cookie cutter thing, because then it's not an original idea.
Speaker 1:You know, you can get inspo and that's, that's a whole thing. But that's still that's for me, like using inspiration still created, because it's like you don't have a step by step of how they made it. You're trying to figure it out yourself and you're like using what you know and then maybe trying to figure out what you need to learn and what you need to know so you can do it, and it really shows.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. I think that like there's so many ideas that like you can make them look bigger than they should have looked if you just spent more time on the creative aspect of it. I had a client one time who wanted it to look like they were playing inside of like a cube made of like like tubes and like we didn't have the budget for like a cube of tubes.
Speaker 2:We just didn't have it and like I feel like those are more common these days, like you could see those and like rent those out, but this was like maybe five years ago, when like the tubes were kind of like pretty new.
Speaker 1:Honestly, and like pretty expensive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're really expensive.
Speaker 2:So, like we only had like the smaller ones and he wanted to look at he was playing inside of him, like, oh man, how do we do this?
Speaker 2:So we set up just a square of tubes in the background and then in the foreground we basically positioned them with stands, so the camera was static. We positioned four other tubes like going toward them, as like the leading lines going toward the tubes, but like we basically like did a forced perspective where, like those were like 10 feet back but the tubes closer to the camera were like three feet away and we basically just like traced like lines that made it look like they were going like 20 feet. But just the way they were positioned, they were angled properly where, like you believe that they were playing inside of a cube. If you move the camera like three inches, like it would have broke the illusion it would have been done for. But the fact that we were able to like make it look like the set design was like insanely huge but with just like small four foot tubes you can get creative with smaller. You know, that's objects and stuff.
Speaker 1:Such an amazing example of like like creative problem solving because literally you're, you're forcing perspective using the combination of your focal length, the distance of the positioning, yeah, and just from this one locked off angle it seems seamless. It's like um Hollywood does it all the time with miniatures.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, you still see that stuff sometimes.
Speaker 1:I mean you look at the Charlie Chaplin stuff where they overlay things on windows, that's incredible If you ever look at the stuff they did back in the 20s or 40s, whatever it was like.
Speaker 2:some of that stuff is still cooler than what they're doing today 100% you ever see like the.
Speaker 1:there was one, I just. I've seen it a couple of times now, but I thought it was so insane. It was like skating close to the edge. Yeah, I know, I knew you were going to talk about it. It was like an infinite room, that was insane because that was like he.
Speaker 2:He made it to that. And that was another one where if you move the camera, just slightly.
Speaker 1:slightly, it would break the illusion Completely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was like a matte painting or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was a matte painting on like one section of this plexiglass.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Probably was solid glass because I don't think they really had plexiglass that clear back then, yeah, so it was probably solid glass, and then they had the full set behind it and so they're filming through this glass but it's like perfectly lined up with the edge. I love that.
Speaker 2:And then he's just like I mean yeah, well, like in the old great performer, yeah, the old Star Wars films they would do matte painting of like all, like the army soldiers like all the super wide shots. A lot of times it's just like a static shot of like a painting and like it just works.
Speaker 1:And it has so much life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the film like that was crazy. I mean, nowadays you can do it with VFX. You could do set extensions. That's really popular now, where you have an artist or somebody in the foreground. Then there's screen screen with like track markers and if the camera's moving you can build like a huge set that just keeps going behind them and that's kind of a way to One effect.
Speaker 1:I remember a while ago that I saw from one of your videos that I was like I absolutely love this. This is so cool Because the Van Gogh when he went to the painting and then everyone in the video discuss this van, that was for Julian Karens.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I actually collaborated with Kyle Monroe, who's an awesome VFX artist, because, like I was trying to figure it out, I was like, how are we doing like painting and stuff like that? And he had this way of like doing, like not frame by frame, but he was able to kind of do it like that where, you know, he was able to take each frame, apply some sort of effect to it and then just sequence it and I'm like that looks insane. So, like we had to, instead of having an actual painting they were touching, we basically just like went out into the world, like, say, there was a brick wall they were walking up to. We just put a big green screen in front of the brick wall and then just like completely fabricated whatever they were touching on the wall so that they could like go into the paintings.
Speaker 2:So we had to like bring green screen backdrops with us everywhere. We went into like the woods and stuff it was. It was pretty crazy, yeah. I mean it goes to show what you can do with very minimal stuff Like I don't think we, even like we the lighting was terrible outside.
Speaker 1:I was going to say, like, how'd you do the lighting for the green screen?
Speaker 2:I mean, like you know, realistically on a hard Sunday you should have like some sort of floppies or anything like uh something up the light and nope, we just literally went out there, green screen blown in the wind, just wishing for the best. And yeah, I'm sure the key job was just a nightmare, but you know hey they pulled it off.
Speaker 1:I mean I was thinking I just saw that. I was like yo, this is magic, this is awesome, like it's so cool. And it's fun even like the things on the wall. Yeah, I was thinking that you were putting green screen like in the paintings or like in that specific spot, but like we probably could have.
Speaker 2:Honestly, there are so many times like we do something and we go back and we're like this would have been so much easier if we just did this Like I think one time there was like an entire like living room of windows and I had like four different green screen blankets hanging outside those windows and we were just going to key out each one of the windows and put like a city behind it. And then after that fact we're like, ah, like this, this just would have been way easier.
Speaker 2:We just green screened the whole thing and forgot about the window frames and just figured.
Speaker 1:Someone just walk in when you're editing a project and they look like, oh, that's so cool, did you just do this and this? And then you're like listening to like, that sounds so easy, he's right.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've had people sit on edits before where I'm struggling and I hate, like when they're looking over my shoulder shoulder wall and like trying to think, like when it's like a regular edit where there's no VFX, like sitting on the edit, no problem.
Speaker 1:But like anytime you see, like a draft or something like that.
Speaker 2:But like if I'm doing VFX, like people don't realize the amount of just experimenting that goes on with that. And sometimes they're like oh, that doesn't look good, and I'm like I know it doesn't look good. Give me like 30 more tries and then maybe it'll start to look good. And then we can talk, you know like, but I'm just trying to get the basic idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can just experiment throw stuff at the wall until it sticks. That's a lot of times with like VFX stuff is just you just have to keep working it until eventually it starts to look like.
Speaker 1:so I mean a lot of people who are, like, not intimately involved in this world. They don't understand, like, how unprocessed things really are, you know, before you get the final product. I think a lot of people, because a lot of people kind of look at a world now from a content creator standpoint, from a you know iPhone creative to you know, because, yeah, they, that does so much basic processing for you. Yeah, they kind of like think it's like, oh, if you have a high-end camera, it's like a high-end version of this, like it's already graded in difference, like, no, you pay a lot but you get the raw most information, but it looks the worst.
Speaker 1:Right, right out of camera, right out of camera and it's like and then you, because I've had that with clients where you know- I have this being like the raw image.
Speaker 2:Can I look?
Speaker 1:at it immediately or I need to double check. I'm like hey, I just want to triple check that the composition is in the ballpark of where we're heading with this, you know, or something like that. You know, and sometimes I like why does it look like that?
Speaker 2:And you're like I had a client ask me for raw footage recently. Oh man, and like I was like do I just send them the raw, like red files, and just like have them a Not be able to open them. And then, when they do, they're just like why is it? Look washed out and like weird.
Speaker 1:And we're like. You don't understand it, I'm gonna skip this whole part.
Speaker 2:I'm just gonna stretch all these clips out and just color all of them and just export it as one big thing and be like here's everything colored nice and leave a nice for you.
Speaker 1:So and and I've learned that the hard way with a few clients in the very beginning I'm like, yeah, it's like, and then you realize they really have zero idea. And then they and you know, and it's like okay. So that's where, like I explained, like for me, like sometimes we do a wedding every once in a boomerow now, usually for people that are personal connections right, and and sometimes they'll ask to say, oh, can we get the raw footage too? And then that's where I like, what do I do with this?
Speaker 2:Well, no, what I?
Speaker 1:do now is I impose a fee because it's like we're gonna have to process it, you're not gonna do anything with this raw like washed out footage.
Speaker 2:And what are you gonna give him? Like a folder of audio to try to sync up to like exactly.
Speaker 1:Why does none of this sound accurate? Yeah, yeah. So it's like no, it's like okay, well, and I, you know, it's just having that like grace and it's like knowing. That's like yeah, we can't ever send like things. It's like I have to at least get it to a ballpark where it looks decent. It's different if it's like an agency or somebody who's actually If?
Speaker 2:they're like hey, give us the raw footage, we know what we're looking at.
Speaker 1:Yeah that's.
Speaker 2:That's a different ask, but yeah, somebody who somebody who doesn't know what they're doing with the footage. Yeah, you got to give him something that looks pretty clean, oh yeah, I think that's.
Speaker 1:That was like a thing. That's like you could really save yourself a big headache from that. Yeah, that's for sure. Yeah, especially from reactions and you have to explain and you know, and they don't understand. Um, well, we got a little sidetracked it on that one.
Speaker 2:No worries, I mean what I feel like. I don't know a ton about what type of work you do most. I know we started chatting about it before, but like what, what is it that you kind of find yourself doing a lot?
Speaker 1:So right now we're diving pretty like netting down, I would say, into the arts and cultural institution space with museums and some nonprofits and such. So we do a lot of work for some East End museums here right now, like the parish and the Watermill Museum and Now. But we're looking for, we're looking towards expanding that, you know. So it's like a lot of artists, interviews, live streams of talks and different things like that. I love working with artists and and we're trying to do a couple different things outside of that. So like that's one venture that's like with the production side, we have the podcast, of course, yeah, trying to build up the studio in itself to be in more of a product commercial space and In a photo shoot space. But we developed the like the product shoots in here and Outside of that. I mean we in the beginning, I think, like anybody who you just started doing a little bit of everything.
Speaker 2:The phone ranks and you say yes, yes, exactly, can I? Can you film my dog taking a crap? Yeah, yes. Yes, great $50, I'll do it. I'll be there tomorrow.
Speaker 1:In the beginning. I heard a great quote. It was says like in the beginning you do for what you can get. Then you start to do it for what it costs. You know, okay, get it out, yeah. And then you do it for the value of the outcome. The ROI typically more of commercial.
Speaker 1:Sure why so. And those are like the three stages that a lot of people go through as, and I found it true for us, like in the beginning, we were definitely in whatever we can get. We did real estate, we did weddings, oh yeah, music videos for sure, little small business commercials, different things like that. But now that we've entered into that the cost and really like expanding that, figuring out budgets and Building into like those three arenas, kind of now that we're doing separating our social medias and stuff, I'm really trying to niche down those areas.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like with the more you can niche down, niche, niche, I feel like I never say that word right, and I'm just never, I think if or get, if or give Gif.
Speaker 2:I thought would be like J I ff right, but it's gif, I don't know, never mind. But anyway, as you niche down you, you tend to get happier because like you're just doing stuff that you want to do, that's like fulfilling to you and you're not like begrudgingly doing something because, like you need the money or something like that. Because I feel like at first, like you're trying to just fill up your calendar as much as you can, because like, yes, you're happy to be doing it full-time, but like you're just trying to fill out your calendar so you can pay your bills and like, yeah, yes, you're obviously great, you're like a scarcity mindset.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're like you're like all right now, like people are calling me, yes, yes, yes, yes, and you just say yes to everything so you can, you know, feed yourself. But then, once that phase passes and you're like, okay, like I have a filled calendar every month, like let me try to just Start niching down and doing the projects that I really, really want to do, and I think that that's a lot of people's stories, like they start off by doing every type of video where possible and they kind of figure out what you like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, and then it's like okay, this is where I'm gonna be. Yeah, and then it's it's funny when you do that, the budgets grow and then you don't have to do as many projects at once, you know and well, you get better at it.
Speaker 2:So obviously you know you can demand more and the client to Vendor relationship.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure if that's the right way to say it, but I'm just saying Client to vendor relationship tends to be calmer with the way and especially that range. I'm sure you've founded that, like some of the higher end, maybe not a hundred percent of the time, but for most of the time, like from what I've seen with the bigger budgets, and when you're dealing with, like, bigger corporations, they're more like you're the expert, this is what we want. We trust you to do it. Yeah, just have it to us. They see it and they're like oh, that's great, thank you, here's your money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, on that level, it's like they assume a certain level of professionalism by reaching out to you and like they did yeah, they trust you more.
Speaker 1:They do, versus direct to client at the lower budget. They did, and it's not like anybody's fault is that. They're trying to get as much as they can out of the budget.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, I mean that's on both sides.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's pretty common and I just remember a big realization I had was so many. If my calendar is filled with so many of these lower end you know, I don't have the space on my calendar to accept the bigger things that are coming, so I actually have to leave. I had to start leaving availability for the jobs I do want and stop saying yes to the jobs that I'm like okay, these are no longer serving me. I don't want to continue them.
Speaker 2:See, that sounds like the smart way to do it, where it's like what I did was like the really unhealthy way to do it, which is basically back it off anymore, just like Create so much work that I'm drowning, and I'm just like, how do I survive? I phones ringing like where's my project, where's my project? And I'm like, ah, and then like I just get crazy and then, you know, eventually implode at some point. But no, yeah, like that sounds like the right way to do it and I feel like me, I just was just like yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes to the bigger one, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:And then, like I just like, will sometimes, and it still happens from time to time, like I implode it to I think, I think, I think we are an experienced some sort of like creative overload.
Speaker 2:It's not even like the creative overload, it's just like you bite off way more than you could chew and then you're just trying to figure it out and you just figure it out.
Speaker 1:You know what I get on top of it and you learn for the future. Yeah, move a little more smooth sailing the next time until you reach the nurse, next nurse, next hurdle.
Speaker 2:Oh man, yeah, like I think that's that's, that's just as much of a challenge. Just like when you don't have enough work, that's scary. But like when you have too much work and like you said yes to too many things in like a small bracket of time, that could be scary too, because you're like oh yeah, I'm just counting down the time until, like, somebody starts like getting a little bit like hey, where's my thing? And I'm like, and that's for the priority shift. You're like, oh my god, I really got to like work my face off to try to get this all done, but you, you figured out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know you get it through and I think I think group will very familiar with that. Oh yeah, oh yeah, but it's fun.
Speaker 2:You know, like at the end of the day, it's like I have to remind myself like this is fun, like I've had stupid jobs that like I hated, and I have friends that went to school and they still don't like the career they ended up in. They really don't. So, like I think if, if you're doing this as a career, like by default, you have to like step back sometimes and just be like like I get to do this for a living. That's insane. Like I can't believe it sometimes that I get to and I have to remind myself of that whenever I get overwhelmed and stressed out on set or like with an editor or something and I'm like ready to throw my computer out the window or something I got to just like step back and be like hey man, I get to do this for like. I get to like play around with cameras and like bands and stuff for a living. That's not normal. So you have to, you know, count your blessings on that.
Speaker 1:Just being in a creative field in general is just such a blessing. But we have to have create like grace with ourselves. Because we are tend, we tend to be our worst, like on ourselves, you know, and even if, yeah, every once in a while you'll get a really harassy client, that's part of the game.
Speaker 2:But in any industry.
Speaker 1:I think you know and but that's like, that's a, that's the exception. Usually I don't find it that Um, and by most of the time we're just as hard as on ourselves. So it's like wait, you know what it's like. What do I want to do? I want to do this at a bigger scale, but it's this, and I'm already doing it too. You know, technically, I'm living it right now.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I all the time I beat myself up and just kind of get crazy over. You know the little things of like oh, I'm not good enough at this, this person's better. Like why am I not at this point? Like it's easy to do that because it's just. You know, any person who's creatively driven obviously wants to keep growing and you know we all want it to happen like immediately. But you know we have to really just appreciate the fact that our time's up Apparently. There we go, baby.
Speaker 1:Can you close that up?
Speaker 2:No, it's all good man. No, no worries, Should we?
Speaker 1:wrap it up. Well, I'll have one more. We'll keep going for a little bit.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that was like that wasn't supposed to happen. You're done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no. No, that wasn't supposed to happen. I think the audio settings got reset on the computer, that's okay. Let's go edit this out.
Speaker 2:I thought that was going to be like an eject button. I just get tossed onto the caribre or something.
Speaker 1:It's very through the ceiling right, yep, but no, I think I had two, two, two more questions. Really that I wanted to dive in.
Speaker 1:I would love to hear your perspective on still, and one was really so. You've had your experience in each space of the whole video process. Like you said, there's still videos you're doing from beginning to end, but I really see your bread and butter really big and in the deep director, photography and just plain director, you know and do you what do you find yourself like really, if you like, gravitating towards, like, say, when you do get?
Speaker 1:to which position like that, as far as those different positions go, like you know, because sometimes when you grow like, you have that liberty to expand decision and of course you could be a snack Zack Snyder and just be like, yeah, I'm director, but I'm holding the camera half the time right, if not most of the time, you know. Or you could be like you know, I really want to just focus on the vision and, you know, work with a DP that I trust.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know guys who you know. As they grew, they kind of handed off the DP position to somebody else. And I have a hard time doing that. I don't know if it's just that like I love holding the camera, it's really fun to me and like I love finding the frame and just getting stuff right, and it's not to say I would never hand that position off. I think there's, like if I found somebody that I really clicked with, who like truly understood my vision, the way that like I didn't have to like verbalize every little thing, I could just lean on them and be like, yeah, that's what I'm looking for, I would, I would be open to working with another, I would entertain the idea.
Speaker 2:I just feel like I I don't know, maybe I'm a control freak or something, I just don't know what it is. I love having the camera in my hand. That's like fun for me. Part of the fun is just like running around. Like sometimes I'll go handheld and, like you know, that's hard to kind of teach like kind of being in the right spot and like finding the frame. And like a lot of the times I'm like coming up with weird stuff on the fly that like how could I even verbalize like? Like on a downbeat, I'll like fling the camera around in some like weird way that like I don't know if it's going to work, but like it's the instinct. Yeah, it's like I'm like. I feel like I'm like dying on my own sort if it doesn't work, whereas like if, like somebody else was DP for me, they might not take that creative risk the same way.
Speaker 1:Who else has your segue skills?
Speaker 2:Dude the segues. That's so much fun to me. I love riding the segue around. That was an idea I saw like 10 years ago or like not even 10 years ago. But like I saw some guy on one of the like the smaller ones, like the little swag way scooters or whatever, and I was like that's a great idea and I started using one of those but like the wheels weren't big enough so I'd like get caught on stuff and trip. And then I went out and just bought like one of the bigger segues and man, it's so much fun because, like I love shooting handheld but like it's not always steady.
Speaker 1:So like the ninja walks is not good enough.
Speaker 2:If you, if you get on some wheels and go handheld, you kind of get the best of both worlds because like it's smooth, but I also get the freedom to like creatively frame things, whereas, like with a gimbal or something like, I feel like the gimbal is never as fast as I want it to be to reframe something and you're always kind of like I didn't quite catch the composition I wanted there. I feel like a lot of times with gimbals like you're, you're kind of just like capturing things as they happen but you're not able to frame them up as specifically where it's like if I want to keep somebody in this third of the frame and I want them looking and I want this angle to hit right, but I don't want too much looking room on this side, I could be very like specific with that holding the camera. Yeah, I'm sure I probably you know, with enough experience with a gimbal, I probably could get similar results, but I don't know.
Speaker 1:I'm just like yeah, I mean that's. I agree with you. I mean with the gimbal, in the sense that making those intuitive micro adjustments, it's. It's like there is a secondary response because the gimbals just committed mechanically Like you can do it like handheld, like this, and they, like I'm very used to using a gimbal now, so like I find myself when I'm in a high-paced environment I snap on that sports mode, yeah, and I just lock into, like the positioning, so it just kind of it flows a little better with my hand movements. Got it Okay, but it's, it's, you know, but there is you can't replace.
Speaker 2:You know it's like you can't replace this, like you know, like you know I whip pan fast to something, whereas with the gimbal I'm like it's like kind of like you have to like pre-think out some of those moves or over exaggerate it.
Speaker 2:You know, and if you don't hit it on the mark, then it's just like well, it's like the thing I don't fully get with gimbals that I'm sure I would with experience it's like a lot of times it's like it's less about the start of the movement but like ending the movement right, like I'll, I'll be at the end of my movement and then like it just goes too far and I'm like God damn, I didn't want it to go back. Yeah, that's something more of an experienced thing for sure, and I'm sure yeah, the segue.
Speaker 1:for me, though, it's like, for me it's like a Tom Flynn signature. Because it's like you're really like one of the few people that I I see really like all the time is on it and I'm just like it's fun, it's just great because I really you get these great like almost steady camp type shots.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's more similar to a steady camp because there's like a human element to it and like I'll just like crouch down low and scoot down and get something real low. That like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're almost like holding it to the floor. I remember that Lama God.
Speaker 2:You got that real nice sweeping moment with the air Something that would have taken like 10 minutes of re-rigging something up to like really get that right angle. I can just kind of scoop in and get what I want, and I do like that responsiveness of being able to use a segue and just get in there and film what I need to get like pretty much as I think of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, I think. Yeah, that's such a cool tool, you know, and it too, you know, and a lot of people, I think. Just they're going with the latest and greatest, newest thing, which is like with Gimbles and stuff like that, but like you can never like replace, also like exploring the more traditional ways of doing this and getting creative with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like a combination like that, I try to not stick to one thing too much, though, because I feel like there are people out there that, like they find the thing they like, and they a lot of things are just like that.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I'll shoot a music video just on a tripod, just lock down tripod, the whole video, just to like, just to switch it up. So I'm not just like the handheld guy or the oh, the steady cam guy. Yeah, you know, you always got to be switching it up a little bit, or else you'll find yourself just repeating coverage patterns over and over again and then it becomes to. You know, it's just not as inspiring if you're not switching up all the time.
Speaker 1:I think that's as like a personal, as like creative, like you know. It's like you don't want it to become mundane. Yeah, it's like now when you do things over, it's like, okay, this is turning into a job.
Speaker 2:It can be. You know you got to keep it fresh this way. You know when you go home and look at the footage, like you're excited. You're not like I already kind of know what like this is going to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think well, one great, because I think I loved the example of your story as to is like you never went to school for film or any of this Like. So, like a lot of us in this room were like we're self taught. Yeah, we went to the school of the internet and hard knocks of like trying things and seeing how they didn't work and then finding out why you didn't work and then learning how to make it work next time or make it work in the moment yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think you need film school. I mean I wait for the people that do go there A lot of times. They'll make good connections and get good jobs out of it.
Speaker 1:Networking yeah, like.
Speaker 2:I have friends that went to film school and, like I kind of you know, brought them onto a few sets this way. They could be like what am I doing wrong? They'd be like, yeah, and it's mostly stuff like not setting up a C stand right or like you know, just kind of like little, yeah, little things.
Speaker 1:We're not calling things right or terminology.
Speaker 2:You'll get more industry terms right, I guess, if, but I found just working on sets is the best way to learn you know find somebody who you respect and go work on their set you know, just volunteer or something and just watch.
Speaker 2:What they do be a set of hands and just like, help them set up lights how do they like to light stuff, how do they like to set up their scenes and just like, start making notes of what they're doing and start applying it slowly to your work, and I think that's probably probably the best way to learn.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, 100%. I mean, I feel like we've gone through so many like great points like that, and one of the last things I would say is, like I love to hear from all of our guests. It's like if you could go back and give your past self, your beginning self, some advice to help them out starting out, or to some other people who are just trying to start out in music videos or just in filmmaking in general. I was like, hey, I want to make this passion more of a living. It's like what would be something that you feel would be valuable for them to take away?
Speaker 2:Don't worry about the money for a long time. Just really focus on getting good at what you do. Work alongside people you trust, people who are going to help you grow. Don't be afraid to step outside of what you think you can do. Like I was saying before, it's like just say yes to stuff and try to figure it out. Don't limit yourself, don't feel like you can't do something just because you haven't done it before. There are so many things that if you just work on them as you're doing them, you can figure them out and then just really don't worry about the money for a long time because it's going to limit you. If you try to put, if you take all these budgets that you're given, even if it's like 500 bucks, and you're trying to put most of that into your pocket, what money do you have to make the video look great? You should be focusing on making great videos with most of the budget, making as little as you possibly can, and this way your videos look higher budget.
Speaker 2:This way when people reach out to you, they assume you're working with bigger budgets because you put the majority of the budgets that you had into your video production. So now people are just looking at your work like, oh, I mean, this has to be an X amount production. And then they reach out to you and they'll just assume you're working at a higher level because you've basically put the entire money of the production into the production and instead of paying yourself. And the more you can do that, the more you'll see yourself leveling up and working with bigger clients.
Speaker 1:I think that's a phenomenal. I think one thing I've heard you know a big concept that I think people are starting to get but they really need to see having a job is potentially not a livelihood but a tool to sponsor what you really want to do. Use that and if you can like, like you were saying, use the budget you're getting for that video, If anything, just reinvest that completely into the work. Like, if you can like, if you were able to sponsor yourself that you don't need it but you have, like it's a nine to five, so you have every day after five to build something you know, especially in a creative field. It's like that's what I did a long time for the beginning, like I'm mostly everything I would make was 100% reinvested for as much as I can, because it's like in a lot in the same is like what you're saying. So definitely like, don't be afraid to sponsor yourself. This doesn't have to be something you go all in right in the beginning to make it work.
Speaker 2:I didn't go full time right away. I was working little side jobs for a while. It just can't be a side job that takes so much out of you that you don't have the energy to put into the video 100%. It's like I've worked stupid jobs like security and stuff like that, just like brainless jobs that I could just sit there and like, just be like I can't wait to go out and shoot some videos and then boom, you get out and shoot videos but you have a little bit of money in your pocket. You're not relying so much on making money on every single project, you're focusing on just building your craft and then you know as you move up the ladder, you'll get, the money will come for sure, and then you can go full time 100%.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much, Tom. This has been such a great conversation.
Speaker 2:I feel like I can keep going. Hell yeah, no, this is awesome, man Appreciate it. This is a great time man.
Speaker 1:Awesome brother. So, as always, you can find us at Vision Maker Podcasts. Vision Maker Podcasts on Instagram, tiktok, facebook.
Speaker 2:My space, yes, my space.
Speaker 1:Real, everywhere that, wherever the socials are at this time period that you're watching this, and also, tom, where can people find you, find your work?
Speaker 2:Go to my Instagram. That's kind of where I post up most of my stuff. It's tomjflin, that's flynn. Yeah, I post up a lot of my work there. You know from me on Facebook I might see it, I might not, but you know not as active on there. But yeah, instagram's where I post most of my stuff up and yeah that's great.
Speaker 1:That's great, okay, well, thank you so much again, of course. Have a great day.
Speaker 2:Thank you, man, peace. Yeah, thanks, man.
